Creativity is Spirituality - A Conversation with Carol Mae Whittick

Anita Adams: 00:00:00

heyday for joining Anita Adams here your host and today I'm pleased to introduce you to Carol Mae Whittick who is a creativity and spiritual life coach and podcaster. Carol supports visionaries and conscious creators to utilize their inner power to boldly express their purpose. In addition to coaching, Carol shares wisdom and insights with a broader audience as a dedicated podcaster. She is the creator of higher energetic resonance, H ER or her podcasts. These include her conversations tools for the awakening, which is a platform for that for thought provoking interviews with leading experts in the field of spirituality and creativity, and her inspirations, which is a solo show, where she shares her unique perspectives on key topics and countered by those seeking a deeper knowing of themselves and the world. Welcome, Carol, it's so great to have you here with us today.

Anita Adams: 00:01:06

Carol Mae Whittick: Thank you, thank you.

Anita Adams: 00:01:08

And I have I have to tell you, I've really enjoyed both of your your shows you share some powerful, and thought provoking insights. And your you're a fabulous host, I have to say having experience being on the receiving side of the conversation with you, I really enjoy our time together. And I've enjoyed the conversations you've had with many others. So joyful journeyer check out her her show again, it's her inspirations, he our inspirations and, and her and her conversations tools for the the awakening. Awesome. All right, well, let's, let's dive in. You talk about creativity is spirituality. So I'd like to start there. What do you mean by this, that

Anita Adams: 00:01:57

Carol Mae Whittick: that awareness came to me very, very early on, because I delved into my imaginal world as a way to find some stability in the life in my life as a child, because everything around me was very chaotic, because of just circumstances within the household. And over time, I'd realized that I'd be able to just kind of bring things in, you know, have an idea and, and be able to write a song or have an idea to make some clothes or, or even learn how to ride a bike, you know, when I'm writing about my story at the moment. So I'm just remembering all of these anecdotes. And it wasn't until I got much older that I realized that hang on, where's all this stuff coming from? No, especially when I was learning to play the piano. So I'd go to a piano tutor, and they would say, Okay, go to the shop and buy these books. So for free initially, when I was learning, I always thought that you went to the shop and you bought a book, and that's where you got music from. But then when I started to make music of my own, it's like, well, where's this coming from? This is coming from somewhere else, some kind of different realm. And I, you know, maybe I didn't put the word of spirituality on it at that point. But I knew that it came from somewhere that wasn't here. And I always had an interest in esoteric things. Anyway, as as a young girl was always looking into the the esoteric arts, you know, palmistry, like horoscopes and tarot and that kind of stuff. And even though I've moved away from those expressions, I've really, I've kind of gone more into spirituality. And I realized that it's the same space, it's the same space, when you're in prayer, it's the same space, when you're in meditation, when something comes through to you that we might call a download, and then you turn it into something that's tangible, and realizing that is in contact with spirits. So is that not spirituality? So that's kind of where I've got to it, which is why I just say like, tapping into your creativity is your connection with your spirituality.

Anita Adams: 00:04:07

I have never heard it expressed like that before. I absolutely love it. And I see the truth. It resonates deeply with me the truth of what you're, you're saying, and I've experienced that where it feels like it's a download, that you're tapping into something much deeper and more powerful than then then just everyday life. I love that. So that that is really tuning into your higher self is what I'm hearing, you're tuning into your Higher Self, your inner wisdom, and that creativity is coming through to you. And I know that when we when we tune into that, that higher that higher self, we are often directed to step outside of our comfort zone. You know, in our greatest self, our greatest creative self is big, bold and beautiful. It takes courage to really listen and to fall. Little that, how do you guide your clients to find the courage to really lean in and listen, one

Anita Adams: 00:05:07

Carol Mae Whittick: of the one of the simplest ways I can say is, if you want something different, if you want something new in your life, the vantage point that you're on the ground level that you're on is not gonna get you from A to B, you know, you've got a part of you that is looking at you from no 1000 foot, whoever knows, like, way above that highest self that can see the way forward and knows that you need to go through certain experiences, whether it looks like you're taking the long way around or not. Because there will be a learning and a transformation experience that will bring out a different part of you that just like knowing or, or taking, like the lily pads, step from one or from A to B will never get you there. So when you're being led into something else, it's showing you that there is a part of you, that's, that's kind of asking you to step out of the zone of who you are. Because if you want to change, you're gonna have to do different things. And it's about trusting because the more that you can trust, then the more that you hear it, you're like, oh, here we go. Again, it's telling me something weird, but I'm gonna go with it. Because the last time it's worked out for me, or sometimes, I mean, initially, there'd be times when I was much younger that I go along with all the things that I knew. And then there's a period of time where slightly to doubt it, because I start to listen to everyone else. But then, and then the times that when I look back on the times that I didn't take my own inner wisdom, I had to pay a price, you know, sometimes it was financial, sometimes it was just last time or last opportunity. So over time, you get to realize that if you keep ignoring this, then you're it's going to take much longer I don't think Spirit ever gives up on you. But you could have got that bit sooner rather than later. You know what I mean?

Anita Adams: 00:06:58

I do know what you mean. And and I have been there where I have not, I have not listened to that inner voice with wisdom that has was trying to guide me or didn't felt so uncomfortable. So outside that comfort zone, that I questioned it, I doubted it. And it really slows down your progress when you're trying to move towards you know, this beautiful vision that you that you have for for your life. And when you doubt it. And when you when you step away, when you start, like you said to start listening to the external voices, other people, then it really now just slows you down drastically. Do you have any any tips on how to build that trust? Is it just really playing with it and taking your time to to, to build up trust? Or is there something that you can do to help lean in so you can move more quickly towards that highest self?

Anita Adams: 00:08:02

Carol Mae Whittick: I'd say a couple of things. One is know that it's, for the most part, if it feels, if it doesn't feel there's going to be an element of fear. But there'll be something that kind of feels like it's not telling you to go and jump in the river or put your hand in the fire, you know, but it's it's telling you to kind of move in a way that is a little bit uncomfortable, but there could be something there. So there's an element of curiosity, more so than fear. If you really break it down, you know, ask yourself what's the worst that can happen? Moving into that space, well, we'll just, you know, try out and see what happens. Because you can always return home at the end of the day, you know, if it looks too scary, jump back, but also treat it as a relationship. This is some, this is someone, your higher self, this is an aspect of you that is always on your shoulder, always prodding you to like do or look or, or put things in front of you. And it's like any relationship, like when you first meet or first connect with somebody new, you want them to prove themselves and you gotta give it a try. You know, give it a try and see, okay, where's this going to take me and the more that you do it and the more things open up in new ways, then you're like, actually, you know, this person isn't that bad. You know, I can go along with, you know, you build up that trust. It's just I would say that in Think of it as a relationship. And the more that you have a relationship with anyone in your life, the trust is built up over time. It's not just, Oh, you've turned up and you're perfect. You know, you want to see that what they're telling you or how they're showing up in your life is congruent with all the things that they say so treat it as a long term lifelong relationship because it is

Anita Adams: 00:09:50

I love that and it's so true. It's it's about really getting to know yourself like your higher self. And you said something earlier now I just want to present about being cute. Serious. I think curiosity plays such a huge role in, in building that trust in that relationship. Yeah, I like I like to think about it as having a love affair with my highest self, you know, and, and any kind of relationship, particularly a new loving relationship that you step into. You are lovingly curious about the other person, right? Oh, very, very cool. Okay, so tell me, let's dive in a little bit more into understanding why creativity is such an important role in developing our spirituality.

Anita Adams: 00:10:36

Carol Mae Whittick: Because creativity is what we're here for, you know, like everything. If anyone thinks it's anything else, then you kind of, you know, I'm gonna say you're missing the boat, but you kind of are, you know, and we're all creating our lives, whether we're allowing ourselves to be conscious of it or not enough. And when people hear me say creativity, they think, oh, but I'm not a creative person. And this is not necessarily down to you being a painter or singer or musician or architects or anything. Creativity is the way that you express yourself in absolutely everything that you do in the way that you show up in your life. So like, for me, if I think of how I wanted to create my life, as a young girl growing up, in in a single family in a in a in a housing estate in Wolverhampton, I had dreams of like completely different things that made no sense to where I came from. And that was all about me creating this idea, I'm like, I'm going to do all of these things. In order to be that I'm going to create that so that when I get to this age, and that age, or the things that I'm being told are my fate, it's it's not going to be my fate. I decided many years ago that the fate that was kayakers and my circumstances, was not the outcome that I was going to have. And of course, that would just cause a lot of like division and, and conflict with people who wanted me to be realistic and practical. But if you keep in your mind, what it is that you want for your life, and what it is that you believe that it's possible, you keep painting that picture, life will keep moving you forward towards it. And this is evidence for me, you know that all the things that I've been through have made sense. It could have maybe gone quicker if I'd listened in you know, and not mistrusted what I've been shown. And also for thing, if we start to see that our lives are a creation, and every way that we're living in we're living as artists, and everything that we do, and everything that we put out into the world is like almost like a brushstroke, we talked about wanting to leave a mark on the world. You know, if you want to think of that analogy, and think of everything that you do is a mark on the world that your life is a blank canvas, and what colors are you going to paint it to with and what impression Are you going to leave for others when they think about the legacy that you leave, that is your life, then you are a creator. And whatever way you choose to express it is your art. And then if you live your life like ours, in the way that an artist express themselves on whatever medium they choose, everything just becomes more profound. And it doesn't mean that you're so serious to the point that you're very dour with it. But because you have fun because creativity is playing. It's fun. It's like, you know, when anyone who knows anything, it just about playing around and trying to figure things out, you make more mistakes, and you kind of figure it out as you go. It makes you're serious about your life because you want it to be creative, but you're playing at the same time. You know, there's this lightness to it, even when challenges come there's a lightness to it. So that's those are the kinds of things that I'm trying to communicate in this way. So

Anita Adams: 00:13:54

beautiful life, live your life like art, I love that live your life like art and everything we do is a brushstroke that we're painting, co creating, I like to think of CO creating my life with with God with the Divine and my higher self and to me that feels you know, like I'm still in control and yet I'm inviting God source my higher self to partner in this creation with me and let's see what kind of beauty we can we can create. So wonderful I love that. It's it's a shift in the way we look at how we're living life, isn't it if we can really explore it as a piece of artwork and what kind of what kind of what do we want to leave for others to experience and it's an expression of of ourselves beautiful.

Anita Adams: 00:14:49

Thank you for those those words and those that that imagery you painted with this. So how can we develop or further enhance our own Creativity.

Anita Adams: 00:15:01

Carol Mae Whittick: I'm always thinking about this when people say, Well, what do I do? How do I be more creative and like, find something to play with, you know, find something to doodle to do. And it can be anything, you know, some, for some, it's like, I'm going to get a wreck of a car, and I'm going to redo it and turn it into something that it used to be, there's like, everyone has a little thing that they do, maybe it's the way that you place the furniture around your home, maybe it's the way that you cook your food, maybe it's the way that you dress, you know, find something that's an expression of yourself, in whatever way it is, maybe it's the way that you choose to talk, maybe it's the way that you do your hair, you know, make it simple. And just see and play around and try and do things sometimes in a way that's kind of opposite to what it is that you would normally do. Because we do get into routines, you know, like, we're always doing our hair the same, we always put the same color makeup on. But what would what would it be if you just did everything the opposite way, and try to see what else you could be in a different, you know, even riding with the opposite hand, you know, just kind of pull yourself and see what else you can be go to somewhere that you're not used to, like read a book that's written, you know, if you're, if you vote blue, go and read a book that's written by someone who votes read, put yourself in a position, you know, put yourself out of your comfort zone, put yourself in a place where you'd almost be like, triggered by the whole event and see what comes out of you. Because it will show you different sides of yourself, you know, if we start to understand more about the world, we can see that okay, you're not you don't just box yourself in. And sometimes we get so attached to an idea of who we are and what we stand for. And what we're about, that we never become more than that. It's like this is who I am. That's it, your creativity is your evolution of yourself. So by exposing yourself to things that are the opposite of what you think you are, you might find something more about yourself that you never knew was possible. And it's not to say that you change your mind about what it is that you believe in or don't believe in. But that that breath of light awareness opens you up to more possibility, it just shows you that maybe what I thought, you know, this little square of ground that was me, is not just me, maybe there's more that I can be even if I never really change having an awareness of more brings you you've got more tools to play with, you've got more language, you've got more opportunity to hear people in a different way. And here's something that might be the the, the the catalyst to bring out something new in yourself, let's just say push your own boundaries, really open up to other things do things in a different way.

Anita Adams: 00:17:52

That's really powerful. And why I'm hearing two really key things here. One is to remember to play, you know, just the simple things that we do in our day and putting on our makeup or getting dressed or finding expression, and how we present ourselves to the world or how we make dinner or whatever. So the little simple ways of incorporating play into our day. And the other important thing I'm hearing that you're saying is find new ways of experiencing life to do something that is almost like the complete opposite of what you would typically do to then experience and explore what what it's brought up within you in this new experience. Otherwise, we get too locked in and rigid into our, our existence. And we can find play and creativity by breaking outside of the box. Did I sum that up? Yeah, really? Yeah.

Unknown: 00:18:51

I love that idea.

Anita Adams: 00:18:52

And it's and it's something that takes intention, because we get so locked into our daily routines, doesn't it? Don't Don't wait, we just this is how I get to work. This is, you know, the time I make dinner, this is how I my evening routine, like so finding a new way to to just experience life will help to develop your creativity. Awesome.

Anita Adams: 00:19:17

Carol Mae Whittick: And it gets you out of that autopilot as well, you know, because we just continually do things all the same time. You know, if we're in a longstanding friendship relationship with people then we kind of do things by rote we ended up taking people for granted and, and you know, things fall away. But if we're open to see the growth in each other and keep being conscious about trying to explore new things and put ourselves in these new places, you can't help but be new in that new expression. Yeah, beautiful.

Anita Adams: 00:19:48

Yeah, absolutely. All right. I want to I want to talk about creativity and inner wisdom, kind of bring the conversation back back to that because there's so from what you're You're saying to me they're so interconnected, the two are they literally go hand in hand. And I really do love this concept. So how can we bring more intuitive awareness into our everyday life? So we're tapping into our inner wisdom and creating that deeper sense of connection to our higher selves and the creative opportunities that bring.

Anita Adams: 00:20:26

Carol Mae Whittick: You mentioned it before curiosities as is an easy way of doing something like that. Because when you get into curiosity, Curiosity is a question. No, if you think of children, and they're always they want to know why, how, why, why, why, why, why, you know, and they, because then they never stopped, they never stopped asking why. If if you feel the way that you are in your body and your awareness about like, how am I going to figure it this out? Or when you're when you're trying to find somewhere to go is like, where is it? Which way do I go? You're, you're always out there looking for a clue or something. So by staying open in the question in the curiosity of, of there is something out there, then it gives you the opportunity to for things to show up and drop in, and also dropping in ways that you that are almost laughable. You know, sometimes you're asking for a question. I know, I'm in the question of something else right now as well. I'm like, how am I going to do this, I need to really create something within a period of time, and I'm, how am I going to do this? How am I going to do this? And that's all I can do, even though there's a part of my brain that it's going this is not possible. I'm like, but other people are doing it. So it is. So how do I do this? And I know that if I stay in that question, energy, that something is going to show itself up, and it could show up in any way it could be conversation, something pops up online, you know, like an idea, like, I'll wake up tomorrow morning, and I'll have I'll know it, it will come in that way. And then it's when things happen like that, that you you. You are like I am grateful. It's just like, Oh, my thank you, you know, that it just kind of comes from from seemingly nowhere. And then sometimes it turns up in us in such a way that all you can do is laugh, it's like this, you know, it's like almost like hilarious. And the thing is when when you realize that there is something someone some power, that's always just trying to like lay the ground for you. As long as you stay open. You can't help but stay open, because it's way more magical than trying to ask human brains sometimes in who because, you know, they might be closed in their own in their own awareness. So that's that's what deepens it for me by staying open and seeing the magic that turns up. It's like, why would you never why would you ever want to shut that magic down for yourself? To stay open? Yeah, curiosity questions.

Anita Adams: 00:22:55

Love it. Yeah. And the more you're open and curious, and you start to pay attention, and you start to see more and more of it, which I think feeds that that competence, that courage to really lean in and listen to it. So paying attention is so key, isn't it? And presence, and to be able to pay attention, you have to be present to what's going on around you. And curiosity helps with that presence, isn't it? Yeah,

Anita Adams: 00:23:21

Carol Mae Whittick: because you're waiting for something to turn up, and it's gonna turn up. It's gonna turn up in that now moment anyway. So you have to be aware, instead of worrying about, oh, gosh, it's not gonna happen, I'm gonna, you know, when you get out of that space of curiosity, and waiting for the response, if you're just thinking about the future, and all the things that could go wrong, or if you're in the past of, like, you know, worrying about what didn't work out before, then you're missing it, you know, and it could turn up and it could be in your face, and you won't see it because you're thinking about other things, but if you're clear and present or waiting, and and in the receiving of it as well, you know, and this is, this is something that I'm always learning to do for myself, you know, like a lot of time I can get into this doing mode and this entrepreneur and, you know, and shut everything out and realize that sometimes no open up and stay in that receiving because the is there for is there for me all the time. It's been there for me before it will be there for me again, just open up, open up, open up. No. So I'm I'm really coaching myself over something. Yeah,

Anita Adams: 00:24:29

I find we have to constantly self coached away. So what is your process for letting go of the worries of the future and the stories of the past and getting present?

Anita Adams: 00:24:45

Carol Mae Whittick: If I think about the things that I'm working on now is just to get into the vision of it. Sometimes it's just like journaling or just like writing over my desk. I've always got like notes of things written down of what I want to do. And and uh, just dreaming, you know, get into that space of dreaming and seeing, seeing that. So that I can I can go this is what we're working on. This is this is what we're bringing forward. And also being in the energy of it having already been been done low on some on some plane in, it already exists. So because I'm seeing it so clearly on some plane, it already exists and remind myself, if I'm in the energy of the person who's already achieved, what it is that I think I'm a newbie at, then I step into my so called problems with a new space as opposed to someone like oh my god, I don't know what I'm doing. It's like you do know, because you've done it, because you can see it, your job is to just bring it forth now, and remind myself of bringing bringing that forth, and it just gets back into that play, then it's just, it's a matter of time, it's inevitable, we're going to do this, like, spirit is not so much of a game player that it would show me this grand vision, and then just dangle it in front of me and go, No, not this life. But hey, you know, here's what you could have. No, you know, like this is for you. And your your game, the game that you're playing is bringing it through, and in whatever way and as long as you keep walking towards it, all of these little things will show up to guide you through the way and the people that you'll meet the conversations, that kind of stuff.

Anita Adams: 00:26:25

That's a powerful technique. Using this notion of connecting with your future self who's already done it who's already achieved this incredible outcome, and the confidence that you can then move forward with your with your vision. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. That technique is beautiful. It's beautiful. And like I said, the confidence that must you must feel to be able to move forward and you right spirit doesn't dangle things in front of you that is that unachievable? This is for you to move into to own beautiful. Awesome, thank you so much for sharing all this. I have one one more quote actually a couple more questions. But one, I'm really curious about how, how your inner wisdom communicates with you do you do you hear voice? Do you see visions? Do you like what? Do you just get feelings? Like? What? How does it show up in your life?

Anita Adams: 00:27:28

Carol Mae Whittick: Multiple ways. So you know, there's there's multiple ways sometimes it depends on what I'm doing. A lot of the time, I'll see things, you know, so especially when it's coming to seeing myself, what I'm going to be going to be going to be doing in the future, one of the things that I really want to do more of is more public speaking. So I've been doing some training about that. And very quickly, I've realized once I've kind of got over the process and got it out of my mind about it is prior to going on stage, if I just kind of see myself giving the speech already and doing it and feeling it. You know, I'm there already. Sometimes I'll just know, I'll wake up. Oh, okay, then, you know, so I don't even know. It's like it's there. It's

Anita Adams: 00:28:16

already there. You know, knowing it. Yeah.

Anita Adams: 00:28:19

Carol Mae Whittick: Sometimes I've had instances where it's a gut feeling where it is just, you know, and I remember one time that I had a gut feeling about a flat that I moved into, and I shouldn't have moved into it. But I did. But I couldn't work out why I was feeling so Ill like moving into the flat that day, I felt so bad. And I couldn't work out why. And it just turned out, you know, eventually to not be the right thing for me to do. But looking back, it's like, oh, that's what that was because it made no sense. But I have had instances, there was one instance I've been writing about this recently, where I went into really deep meditation, I was taken into a deep meditation. And it was by a man called James D'Angelo who I think still does these kinds of sound, healings and he demonstrated so many things he was doing like overtone chanting and doing singing bowls and tuning forks and placing them all over it. So as a musician, you know, I love the idea of sound and it brought me down. But I remember that meditation and in that meditation going so deep into this space where it was the way that I describe it, the way that I remember it is it wasn't like I was in a black space it was in I was in a very deep blue space because black seems quite flat. And if you mean, but if you think of something that's like a deep blue, it just had this kind of velvety infinite space around it. And it was he kind of brought us down into this meditation where I was aware, you know, you can see through the membranes, but at some point then there was almost like I had a second eyelids, you know, like those reptiles. And it just went super dark. And then during that time, my voice came and said to me anything is possible. But it wasn't like it came from me, it came to me. And I've, I've never forgotten that, because I've always tried to get to that place in my own meditation. And I've never got close. But it was such a profound experience of hearing my voice come at me, and hearing and hearing, and just hearing what it was hearing what it should be. And but it was like, Is this the voice of God? And I've heard other people say similar things that they hear the voice of God, but it's their voice, but they know it's not them. It comes in their own tone. And then when I was doing music, I just hear melodies. So you know, it depends what I'm doing. Thank you for sharing multiple dates.

Anita Adams: 00:30:54

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Because I'm always curious if it's the same for everyone, or quite different for everyone. And I love hearing how it can come to us. Because sometimes I think especially if you're new to this, you might be receiving something and not even realizing that it's you're receiving something, you know, you've might dismiss it you dismiss like you dismissed that feeling initially in your gut about that the path that you went to now, you know, that when you get that feeling that is that is your inner wisdom, guiding you telling you that this isn't right, or, or whatever, yeah, get out. Yeah, I think it's important to have these questions and conversations so others can start to be aware of how they may receive the information and really tune into to exploring that being curious, like, we're talking about being curious it, how's it going to show up for me, you know, so

Anita Adams: 00:31:47

Carol Mae Whittick: just know that if you have a feeling that doesn't really make sense, sometimes that kind of really check into what that might be about? You know, there's times when I've met people, and everyone's singing their praises, and I've just been like, I don't think so. And I think is it you know, and even when it makes no sense, because, you know, no one leads with their, their, their undercurrent, personality, you know, but everyone's nice at the beginning, but there's just been that, not really, you know, and I know, now sometimes it's just better not to voice those things, right. Especially if everyone's going like this, you know, this person, the sun shines out of everywhere, and you're like, maybe, but and the, you know, then time tells that, you know, so if I kind of get a sense that around someone, then I, I will just pull back, you know, and if ever I go into if I remember ransomware, and I'm just unusually quiet, then like anyone who knows me knows that cows not happy. It's not that I'm a loud person, but something that I've got a quietness, and then I've got a silence. And there's a difference between the two, though they sound like the same thing, you know, if I'm just like, really not engaging, right, and you know, that I'm not, I'm not feeling it.

Anita Adams: 00:33:02

You've learned to listen and understand the signs and the things that will up within, which is awesome. That's what we what we're striving for, right, we're striving to really be able to hold that as a as a tool, really, I mean, that sounds kind of crass, I guess, to think of our inner wisdom as a tool, and yet it is it's a tool that is guiding us to our highest best selves, and are the greatest possibilities for our lives. And our job is to figure out how to work with that part of us how to use this knowledge, this wisdom that we have this tool that is available to us home, it takes practice, take some awareness, intention, practice, commitment, curiosity, that all of that. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today, Carol. I really enjoyed our conversation. If people wanted to find out more about you, how to work with you as a coach or to listen to your shows and all the beautiful things that you put out into the world. I know you've got a book that's also going to be coming out later this year. How can people connect with you?

Anita Adams: 00:34:11

Carol Mae Whittick: The best way is to go to the website because then that's a hub and then you can either find everything on there or find me on elsewhere. But yeah, it's Carol Mae Whittick.com. So C A R O L M A E W H I T T I C K.

Anita Adams: 00:34:26

Wonderful, wonderful. And of course, we'll include that in the show notes so our listeners can easily find you. Again, thank you so much for your time, and joyful journeyer I hope you enjoyed our show today and please do reach out checkout, Carol Mae Whitticks podcast, some fabulous information there. And I love like her solo episodes are all you know 15 To 20 minutes long packed full of beautiful information and her voice is just delicious to listen to. So check that out. and we will catch you next time joyful journey thanks for tuning in bye for now